The Update Bar
12/30
Zero update.
1/3
More Zero.
2/4
Updates here and there. On stuff I don't really remember.
2/10
Updates. Plus, some extra details on Hercules' Nine Lives, fairy letters, Ilya, etc.
4/02
Zero 2 entries beginning.
4/18
Caster vs. Ciel
Version 17.3
ORT > Crimson Moon > Primate Murder > Zelretch > Gilgamesh
> Arcueid ≥ Black Sakura > Berserker = Black Saber ≥ Saber >
Lancer > Rider = Archer > Caster ≥ Aoko = Nrvnqsr = Kouma =
Barthomeloi ≥ Kojirou > Ciel ≥ Great Teacher Hassan (GTH) ≥ "Ryougi
Shiki" > V Sion = AC Satsuki = R.Shiki = Bazett ≥ Akiha = Fujino =
Araya ≥ Touko = Alba ≥ 18th Roa > > SHIKI = Kiri = Reinforced
Kuzuki ≥ Sion = UBW Shirou > ha Avenger > Nanaya = Rin = Kotomine
= Zouken = Leysritt > Satsuki ≥ Rio = Avalon Shirou > ha Sakura
> Salaryman Dead = Ilya = Corpse ≥ Azaka ≥ Misayo > Kirie =
Zombie ≥ Dragon Tooth Warrior ≥ Fuji-nee > Shinji > Fake Shiki
Summary - T. Shiki and the 27 have been removed from the rankings due to some debate.
What we definitely know:
Anyway, just as fighters can load a nuclear warhead, they each have their own Noble Phantasms and among the Servants there are ones that have ridiculously powerful ones. That's why when I meant strength being the same as a fighter I thought it would be easier to image.
Oh and, if I were to say it in a sort of non-serious way, they'd be 1/4th of Tsukihime's Arcueid I suppose? The strength of one I mean. Against one Servant, Arc would probably win, but against two, while Arc's having trouble against the one, the other could get behind her and nail her... maybe.
Q: That's more like, whoah, Arc's tough, heh.
Kinoko: (Grinning) 1/2 of Neko Arc.
Q: About the power comparison between Arc and Servants, would the Arc being compared be the 30% one or the full one?
A: That would be the 30% Arc. It takes 7 Counter Guardians to control
the Primate Murder and the Servants of the Grail War are based on these.
Q. In the other Type-Moon works, who else besides Arc can fight against Servants?
A. If we're working on the condition of one on one, with an extremely
average Noble Phantasm. Generally most of the 27 Ancestors, Kishima
Kouma, Aozaki Aoko.
If it's just a defensive fight, but would still be a fight, then Ciel.
Shiki (Rakkyo), Shiki (Tsukihime) are no match for Servants....but
Ryougi Shiki (3rd personality) might be able to go as far as the Ciel
class.
Q. I have a question about the Servants vs. other character answer
in the 9th issue of Comptiq. About a Servant with an average Noble
Phantasm, who would have one and what rank would that have been?
A: That's a serious question. The level of the Noble Phantasm would be
B, and ability being represented by numbers would be called an average
Noble Phantasm. Broken Phantasm, Barrier of the Wind King (C), Gae Bolg
(thrown) (B), that sort.
On the other hand, those with conceptual effects, destiny interference types fall into a special category. With Gae Bolg (regular), no matter how much Arcueid might be superior to Lancer in numbers, she will be killed depending on her luck, you see.
2004 Techgian February issue
Basic ability by class
Saber
STR A CON B AGI B MGI C LCK D
Lancer
STR B CON C AGI A MGI D LCK E
Archer
STR C CON C AGI C MGI E LCK E
Rider
STR D CON D AGI B MGI C LCK E
Assassin
STR D CON D AGI B MGI E LCK B
Berserker
STR C CON D AGI D MGI E LCK E
Caster
STR E CON E AGI C MGI A LCK B
Dengeki Hime, Summary of 8 vs matchups
Saber vs Archer
Nasu-san CHECK! (no need to take into considering the editor ones so)
The class of the representatives of close-range and long-range combat.
Saber, who would take her sword in any condition whatsoever and Archer
who would fight using a strategy of victory. The highlight won't just
be the different battle styles, but the difference between their
personalities.
However, even with UBW, it's questionable whether he could hold Saber
back in single combat. One definite hit from sniping and one absolute
blast of death from her Holy Sword. It might really depend on the wit
of their Masters not their own in determining who has the upper hand.
Rider vs. Lancer
Nasu-san CHECK!
The two boasting the most outstanding speed in the game. Rider, able to
move like a bullet and race around the battle field vs Lancer, able to
counter attackers with a lance with the speed of gods, while standing
still. In average speed, Rider is faster, but in immediate maximum
output, Lancer will win. While Rider has several different types of
Noble Phantasms, Lancer also has protective ability from rune sorcery,
hence counter measures from her mystic eyes. Against an expert monster
exterminator like Lancer, one who has a monster alignment such as Rider
might seem to be in for a tough fight....!?
Archer vs. Assassin
Nasu-san CHECK!
If it's a straight out death match, then Archer will win. But Assassin
is an oddity that fights under different battle conditions from the
other Servants. While many Servants are offensive, Assassin is
defensive. At a Servant-killing battlefield like Ryuudouji and with
Caster's anti-sorcery defensive barrier, sorcery and Noble Phantasm
power is decreased significantly. As a result, if it's not a powerful
Noble Phantasm, then he won't take a fatal wound. Which means that the
battle between the two is clearly swordsmanship. With Archer having his
sniping sealed off to him due to the terrain effect, could Archer
actually lose...?
Archer vs Rider
Nasu-san CHECK!
If you think about it, Archer will win, but at long range, Rider would
be? Just like that question, their compatibility is not very good.
Since both aren't fixated on the methods of winning, they'd definitely
both choose a low-risk and high-return type of warfare.
Even if Archer takes out a Saber-class holy sword, he doesn't have
enough Prana to draw on to maximize it, so it'd be hard to for him to
attack Bellerophon. What determines victory or defeat is whether Aias
on its own would be enough to block Bellerophon perhaps...?
Assassin vs True Assassin
Nasu-san CHECK!
If it's just Servant vs Servant, then without complaint, True Assassin
would have the better chance of victory. Right, Kojirou doesn't have
any means of breaking through Zabaniya. But there's more to it. The
problem of Zabaniya is that it's not immediate death. If a normal heart
gets destroyed by it, then the person dies immediately but the
opponents are Servants. And especially against Kojirou, who has a
strong spirit alignment, even if his heart is destroyed he still will
have some fighting power left in him. Right in the interval after TA
uses his Noble Phantasm, Assassin could close the gap and use Tsubame
Gaeshi. Which means....it would be a draw since both of them would end
up dead...?
Kuzuki vs Caster
Nasu-san CHECK!
Welcome to the beginning of the unorthodox rumble series! The end of
the ugly battle of the married couple.....yeah well, just as the adage
goes about the loser being the one who falls for the other first, it'd
end with Caster being the cause of her own defeat no matter what! You
can do it, wakaokusama! ....would be the punchline I started off with,
but if both were really serious it wouldn't even be a "fight". Kuzuki,
who'd kill the opponent instantly before being noticed, and Caster, who
has overwhelming firepower to annihilate the enemy with once the battle
starts. Basically, whoever gets the first hit wins without question,
would be the "conditional battle".
Rin vs Kotomine
Nasu-san CHECK!
Ah. Rin has the better specs, but 80% of the time, Kotomine would win.
It's not easy for humans to conquer trauma printed into them and what
this fraud of a priest excels at is opening up the trauma of the enemy.
Since Rin has the goof-up girl trait, she has a lot of traumatic
experiences, and having these poked at would make her unable to take
advantage of her true potential.... Of course, even if they didn't know
each other, Rin would still have a hard time. The executor side of
Kotomine, a combat expert with over 10 years of experiences in killing
magi, would be the counter of Rin's talents.
Taiga vs Kuzuki
(I'm ignoring this completely)
Q. Lancer, Caster, Assassin, and True Assassins; all with normal
attack and Noble Phantasms of B or lower. If they fought against
Berserker, wouldn't it be a one-sided fight? Or are there any of them
that can match up against him?
A: Assassin and True Assassin by themselves wouldn't even be a fight.
Lancer can use his runes and Noble Phantasm together to temporarily
raise the rank to A, but it'd still be a very disadvantageous fight but
"one with some chances". Caster has two front-line Saber-class
defenders, so if she uses her high sorcery then she'd be able to deal
damage, but that would be limited to 2 to 3 times. Also, in the game,
Assassin was able to push Berserker back because of the terrain
advantage and support from Caster (weighing down Berserker's body).
...Well, since the compatibility of Assassin and Berserker is horrible,
the fact that Berserker was even pushed back is enough to say "whoah,
Kojirou's amazing".
Q. Is the reason why one attack not working on Berserker again
because of his Noble Phantasm or because he can counter it on his own?
A: The answer is both his body resistance and his technique.
God Hand has the ability to develop body resistance after learning damage that had been taken once.
Berserker himself also has the skill of seeing through an attack taken
once (Eye of the Mind), but since he's mad enhanced, his swordsmanship
techniques are sealed so he can only rely on God Hand's power.
From Comptiq 2006 7
Q: If Bazett and Kuzuki got in a hand-to-hand fight against each other, who would win?
A: If it's the first fight, then Kuzuki will win. If it's the second
fight, then Bazett would pretty much completely win. Kuzuki could even
drive Saber into a corner as long as his trick was kept hidden, but
Bazett is also an expert at hand-to-hand combat thought of and
developed by human beings. There's the possibility that she might adapt
to Kuzuki's "snake" quicker than the Servants, who are more emphasized
by their talent. However, since she might underestimate Kuzuki-sensei
as being a normal person, Bazett could be beaten pretty simply.
From Degenki Hime 8
Bazett vs. Caster
Nasu: As has been speculated (by the editors), the battle would proceed with Caster winning overwhelmingly.
As Caster doesn't have a trump card to use against Bazett, she's quite
the difficult opponent for Bazett to handle (note: in other words,
Fragarach is useless). While lady Bazett is at times able to dodge,
deflect, or nullify high thaumaturgy, she'd be fatigued before she
could grab a chance at getting the upper hand.
.....Oh and you see. Caster-san. She's merciless against mature women.
Melty Blood volume 1 Nasu comments
"At this point, "MELTY BLOOD" caused a major contradiction.
Since this was a fighting game, the position of the protagonist, Tohno
Shiki, a character that could participate in combat only by means of
trump cards, was reversed, and he became involved in the story as a
protagonist that can "fight normally".
"....Right. The characteristics of the characters in "MELTY BLOOD" had either been exaggerated or restrained from what they had been in Tsukihime."
"Using cards as an example, Shiki of Tsukihime would be a 3 of Hearts. But the Shiki of "MELTY BLOOD" would be able to fight normally as a Jack of Spades."
From Comptiq 8 (only a summary of the actual interview so I'll pick it up later to confirm it)
Shiki vs. Shirou
"If powers are at max and we ignore the point of self-destruction
caused from overflow then Shiki will win. No matter how much Shirou
makes swords, Shiki will keep 'killing' them. It's a different story if
it's possible to use a 'Mana Burst' like Excalibur."
Problem points:
1. Most probably referring to Archer-Arm Shirou but it could just as
well be UBW Shirou. In either case if we ignore the fact that both of
these people aren't going to have a future left after the fight, then
Shiki wins. UBW Shirou is more of a gatling gun type anyway so that
would be more appropriate for a killing one after the other.
2. Killing a Noble Phantasm, even a traced one, will cause problems
apparently. "Self-destruction due to overflow" in the case of Shiki
could either mean the amount he has to deal with or the nature of Noble
Phantasms (even traced) or a combination of both.
3. Interpretation of last line by some is that Shiki can't kill
Excalibur. Interpretation by others is that Shiki can't do anything
about an energy blast.
From Comptiq 9
Q: Who is stronger, Gilgamesh or Arcueid (30%)? While Arcueid has the strength of 4 Servants, I remember there being a scene in hollow implying that Gil was the equivalent of 5 Servants + a.
A. In the definition of Arcueid's strength, there's this thing where "her output changes according to her opponent". As an absolute order taken from her backup, the planet, she is allowed only an output a little stronger than her opponent. And. Single entity abilities of Arc and Servants are roughly on the same level
Servants use their respective Noble Phantasms while Arc uses her unlimited backup to fight, and differences occur depending on affinity. A simple-is-best Arc is an all rounder, and so generally her chances of winning are only high, but there are those opponents that she just has helplessly awful compatibility with.
For example, in cases where even if the guy's stats are about the same as Arc, he has a ridiculously large number of weapons with high versatility. As the amount Arc is allowed to take out is based on "single entity ability", against types like Gil-sama, well, you see?
And the "5 Servants + a" line is a comparison of simple "firepower". Like with the "corpses", foot soldier level opponents aren't going to be avoiding their attacks, so the ones who'd have the advantage are the ones who have more weapons. The reason why Servants excellent at one-on-one combat didn't stand out in Broad Bridge was because of this. Also, for normal Arc, she would get approximately the equivalent of 2 Servants single entity stats.
Note: A bunch of different ways of interpreting this from what I've seen. The 4 times amount mentioned in previous Kinoko comments earlier could be the maximum amount of Arc in her 30% state that she gets depending on how powerful her enemy is. Or something similar, but on average she's going to be less than that. Base stats could be the same as one average Servant, but due to the Counter Force modifier this is adjusted to 2 times the amount of one Servant (not factoring in Noble Phantasm powers or amounts; probably the equivalent of Berserker).
Mrm, either way this is a mess. Ultimate form of Counter-Force 30% Arc = 30%. Servants and base Arc = 7.5%, while anti-Servant Arc is 15%?
Or maybe 30% Arc (with adjustment) = 2 Servants.
Bazett vs Shirou
What Nasu said:
With this time's battle, since we're working off the assumption that
Shirou "has trained/is operating himself to the max", people might
think that this might end up being a good fight, but m'lady Bazett's a
trained professional specializing in anti-magus battles. Technique,
experience, and battle power. Against someone like her whose superior
in all those regards, even with a "Broken Phantasm", Shirou's
disadvantages are still not going to change. And you see. She's
ruthless.
Summary of....oh, who the hell cares:
Lesse. Stuff to note is that the editor response mentioned stuff like
"unleashing true name of Noble Phantasm", "Reality Marble", "Nine
Lives", etc. Kinoko didn't mention anything about this, but if Shirou
had all these skills, the only difference would be the "guardian"
modifier Archer gets with his "Reality Marble". And we already know
that Bazett is no match for a Servant, even a no-name like Archer.
In other words, is this max Shirou from the previous Shirou vs. Shiki one the same one?
Would be what this guy from the blog wanted to say. I don't care anymore~~~~~~~~ though. Somebody actually ask an interesting question. Like. How much Od do the other Servants have. Or how fast can they move. Or something!
Q+A Servants vs 27 Ancestors + Bazett vs Ciel
Q: Who'd win if the Servants and the 27 Ancestors fought each other? Also, who'd win in a fight between Bazett, a renowned powerhouse of the Association, and Ciel, top class in even the Association?
A: Depends on compatibility, but basically Servants will have the slightly higher advantage. With Saber, Lancer, and Archer classes, we ought to be able to relax and see decent fights. In particular, Saber has THAT sort of Noble Phantasms so against guys like the 27 Ancestors that overwhelm by material quantity and alienness, she'd be REALLY tough.
....Well, there are also some of those tough Ancestors that can withstand a direct hit from Excalibur-class attacks, but against those guys that just (emphasis on just; other stats don't match up) have wickedly high HP, Lancer-aniki'd be pretty tough.
Oh, and regarding Bazett-san and Lady Ciel, Ciel'd still win at the point Bazett was in Hollow. Once Bazett awakens and masters Fragarach, it'll turn into a good match.
Me: Well, so in other words. The front-line Servants are generally going to at least be equal to the typical (how the hell does this get reinterpreted to lower-ranking?) DAA. Hollow Bazett is still going to lose to Ciel, but level 30 Bazett will be able to put up a good fight.
So to be clear here:
1. Saber (as in anybody with an anti-fortress level class or higher
level NP attacks) will have good affinity against people like Nrvnqsr;
who rely on numbers and what not.
2. Lancer (not the class itself, but our Lancer) is strong against
those DA Ancestors with high damage resistance (enough to survive a
direct hit from Excalibur). Should be emphasized that these are the
ones that just/only have abnormally high HP; other stats will not match
up.
3. Yes, the 3-knight classes will have reasonably good chances of
winning in a way that won't seem like either side is overwhelmingly
more powerful than the other (while Servants have the slight upper
hand). Say around 50 to 60% chances of victory.
4. Note that it's previously been said that almost all the DAA can
fight against Servants. Emphasis on almost. This means that the
exceptions (as in can't fight) could be one to two (Enhance and
Alcatraz; Nahat is also a candidate).
5. It's been suggested that that since no names are given, the
so-called DAAs being described in this Q&A are the ones currently
sealed (as in locked in coffins in the Church). Which is ridiculous;
overall, it should be reasonable to assume that other than the top 5
numbers (3 of which definitely can't even be called DAA technically),
Servants should have a good chance of standing up against/"defeating"
(perma-killing is a different story for some) the remaining unsealed
DAAs. The End.
Next, from Game Japan.
GJ: I have a question about Fate characters. How high (or low) are the talents of Emiya Shirou and Tohsaka Rin within the entire history of the Association?
Nasu: Rin really is a genius. Given time, she'll enter within the top 100 magi of the Association throughout its entire history. Shirou won't move out from being an magus apprentice, but as a spell-user, he'll be among one of the big specialists. Ultimately, he'll receive an evaluation on the same level as "Magus Killer" Emiya Kiritsugu had in his peak, maybe. If I were to put into simple numbers, Ciel: 100, Rin: 70-100, Shirou: 10 (under particular limited conditions, then 40).
(Note that the Association has been around since the Middle Ages and is also going to include Atlas and Sea of Estray; also note that this isn't battle power but thaumaturgy power.)
Next, from a Comptiq special.
Q: If Caster and Ciel went full out on magic and fought each other, who would win?
A: That'd be Caster. A lot's been said, but see, she's a witch from the
divine era, something that shouldn't be in the present. If it was a
competition against human opponents, then Caster would present the most
horrifying and greatest results among the HF 5 Servants..... Though, if
Ciel got her hands on what lies within the deepest parts of the
Evocationary area of the Association and sends the Seventh Scripture in
her, things will be different.
Next, from Comptiq 6.
Q. Why did the Einzbern summoned Hercules as a Berserker? I'd think that in some other classes, he'd be able to have access to skills and Noble Phantasms that he had originally had....
A. Simple is POWER. Mayhap the Einzbern, who had been up until now been betrayed again and again, felt it safer to have a "loyal dog that'd do only what they told it to do". The aspect of Hercules as a regular Heroic Spirit would have many advantages in his own right, but on the other hand, there's also the possibility of some cooperative friction occurring with the Master because the heroic part of him is a bit too strong. That kind of Master and Servant combo is pretty frequent in Fate/Zero...
Q. If Cu Chulainn and Diarmuid, both of the same Lancer class, fought each other, who would win? Cu Chulainn, when he first was introduced, was being pushed back by Saber, but in Fate/Zero, Diarmuid was the one who was doing the pushing right? Which would mean that Diarmuid is stronger?
A. Diarmuid has excellent Master backup (Prana supply amount), so in
terms of a pure battle of firepower (this is probably referring to
Prana output to stats, not NP strength), so the battle should go to
Diarmuid. In Japan, both of them get zero bonuses from terrain effect
(recognition factor), but if they were fighting in
Ireland.......probably Cu Chulainn.